Bob Trebilcock: Welcome to The Rebound, where we'll explore the issues facing supply chain managers as our industry gets back up and running in a post-COVID world. This podcast is hosted by Abe Eshkenazi, CEO of the Association for Supply Chain Management, and Bob Trebilcock, editorial Director of Supply Chain Management Review. Remember that Abe and Bob welcome your comments. Now, to today's episode.
Bob: Welcome to Futureproof to Your Supply Chain for 2023 and Beyond. This is a special episode Rebound coming to you live from ASCM CONNECT. We've got you and the audience. We're also streaming this out, which probably scares the death out of us. I'm Bob Trebilcock. I am the editorial director of Supply Chain Management Review, and I'm the co-host of The Rebound.
Abe Eshkenazi: Welcome, everyone. I'm Abe Eshkenazi, currently the CEO of ASCM, the Association of Supply Chain Management.
Bob: Abe, if you're a music fan and if you ever watched the Woodstock movie, they bring on Crosby, Stills & Nash. Nobody knows who they are and their first live gig, the first time they've played live in front of people was Woodstock. This is our Woodstock. We did this as a virtual event last year, but it was streaming, which was to us just like doing a regular podcast.
Last year when we did it, we asked our guests how they were coping with disruption, that was our theme. Even then, they were looking beyond the present to the future. A year later, clearly, disruption is not behind us. We just averted a rail strike as we heard from General Lyons yesterday. I think the best organizations are trying to look to the future which is what we want to talk about today. Abe, since this is your event, take it away.
Abe: Thanks, Bob. Extraordinary opportunity to talk to some real professionals in our industry to provide broad perspectives on the supply chain challenges that we're facing today. Let me introduce this esteemed panel. First, we have David Glick, the Chief Technology Officer at Flexe. Prior to that, David spent nearly 20 years of Amazon, including five as VP of fulfillment and technology. Next, we have Tom Rafferty. Tom's a futurist and an innovation evangelist. I want that title.
He's also the host of two podcasts, and as you’ll hear, he's deeply invested in supply chain’s role in sustainability. Finally, Rick Watson, eCommerce influencer and the founder of CEO of RMW Commerce Consulting. Works with helping investors and management teams, enhance direct-to-consumer businesses. Like Tom, he's also a host of a weekly podcast. Gentlemen, welcome, and thank you for joining us today.
Tom Rafferty: Thank you.
Rick Watson: Thanks, Bob.
Abe: As Bob mentioned, over the next 45 minutes, we're going to dig into a number of topics here and, hopefully, provide some insight and some help for individuals facing some of the challenges that they're dealing with today. First, some of the challenges and more importantly, what's shaping the future of supply chains? What are the things that people need to pay attention to? Second, we'll dig into a little bit of the ESG and see how that's impacting our supply chain decisions and, hopefully, our future.
Then, finally, the core of what we do in ASCM, that is people, and how they influence the supply chain and the criticality of talent within our system. Question number one, we're going to focus on the role of technology first. In our prep session, each of you views technology as critical, obviously, but also as a side issue, it didn't seem to resonate as the most pressing thing for their organization. Let's start with a simple question here. When you think about the future, what's the most pressing issue that we see in supply chain today? Let's start with Rick.
Rick: I think particularly in the next couple years, really the most pressure issue is like three things. Labor, labor, and labor. So much of the problems people can't put together a real shift or plan a schedule more than five minutes in advance because how do you even know if the forecast is right much less that the people that you're going to recruit are going to show up on time or be trained properly? That is driving a whole host of downstream effects in the supply chain, not the least of which, all the technology investments used to make the people you can retain more efficient and make supply chains better.
David Glick: Obviously in the short term, I would say Long Beach. You've got a bunch of ships queued up, you've got a hundred ships, and forecasting's hard in the best of times. When you know what your vendor lead time is, what your demand is, what the interest rates are. What we've seen is that you don't know what your vendor lead time is. You don't know what the standard deviation of your vendor lead time is.
All of those things lead into crappy forecasts. If you don't have the right forecast, you can't get the right people in the building. You end up with over-inventory or under-inventory. I don't know if we're going to talk about Amazon's 10 million extra square feet, but people say it's a supply problem. I continue to believe it's a demand problem. People are saying everybody's overbuilt. No, we're just underselling.
Tom: I might take a slightly different attack. I think the future of supply chain really is going to be impacted by sustainability and climate change. Particularly, we are seeing massive regulation coming down the line, which is going to heavily, heavily, heavily impact supply chain over the coming years and decades. This isn't a short-term thing. Sure, we have some of the issues that we've talked about already. A lot of those are short-term, but the sustainability one is one that's much, much, much more serious and far, far longer term. We're talking years plus decades after that. This is something that's only going to gain in importance as we go along.
Bob: Rick, I want to play off of something that you said. Again, as Abe mentioned, we were going to talk about technology it didn't resonate. When we did our prep, you started with labor, labor, labor. One of the things I'm finding is that technology is starting to be interweaved with labor. I had a call with [unintelligible] Chief Procurement Officer and he talked about people process and technology, and then he weaved technology into all of those. If you attend Gartner, they've come up with this phrase that sounds like a sociological phrase, human-centric digital automation.
What they were saying is that before COVID, the big focus in supply chain was technology. We're going AI and robot and robotic-process automation and the pandemic brought out the fact that we're still run by people. As you think about where you started, people and technology, what is going to be the role of technology in terms of what we do with people? How are they going to interact as you see?
Rick: I think human-centered design has really been a focus of design thinking for decades now. I think that continues to increase. If there's anything that I think supply chain and warehouse automation has taught us about humans and how they interact in the supply chain, it's a couple of things. Number one, it's injuries. Avoiding repetitive injuries means motions that are not safe that maybe used to be okay 5, 10 years ago aren't safe anymore. How are you going to keep people employed in those situations? That's number one. It's just repetitive injuries.
Second, is just motion, motion of humans in the warehouse is shrinking, shrinking, shrinking year after year because the more humans have to walk, then your supply chain is slower. A single person can support fewer pieces per pick or whatever it is metric you're on the floor with. I think it starts with what your customer wants. How do you design a great customer experience? What processes need to support that? Then technology is really an enabler for that to make sure that you're getting the most of your investments in your facilities and the people that you've hired.
Bob: David, you're a CTO, technology is in your real house.
David: Let me tell a story of-- Look, I'm actually the guy who said we don't need technology, we don't need--I started with Amazon in 1998, 1999 we did the build-out of 3 million square feet of highly automated warehouse space. We hired a bunch of folks from Walmart, and they came in and they built us the best-case pick distribution solution that you could build for $50 million of building. It turned out that we weren't doing case pick that we were shipping [unintelligible] to customers. We took us like five years to undo all the bad that we'd done and put in the right system. The latest one is like Tesla when they built the model three production line, all robotics, and then they ripped it all out and built the cars in the parking lot.
The success story we had, Amazon bought Kiva, but we really deeply understood what we needed and we didn't try to have a simulation, a picking robot. We took the walking out. The robots did the walking. Kiva guys are super smart because they're like, this is hard. The picking is hard, but you only pick for like 15 seconds at a time. You walk for minutes at a time and that's actually much easier.
Deeply understanding how to use technology is a prerequisite for actually using technology. My sales folks come in, "Hey, we need robots. DHL has robots." What the heck do we need robots for? Bring me a customer who needs robots and I'll build robots. We should think about process first and technology second, because if you don't have the right processes, whatever technology you build is going to be wrong.
Bob: Tom, you similarly have a technology background. Weave this through as you're thinking about your identified sustainability and climate, so weave through technology in there.
Tom: Sure. One of the most important bits of legislation that's going to come through in the next few years is the new SEC proposals around reporting of climate risks. This will require all publicly listed organizations to report their climate emissions. That's coming in the next couple of years depending on the size of your organization out to scope three emissions.
That's really, really hard and you can't do that unless you've digitized all your processes. That's going to be a huge issue for all organizations, be they supply chain or otherwise everyone has a supply chain, but you know what I mean. Whether you're a supply chain manager or whether you are a CEO of an organization, you are going to have to figure out how to digitize all your processes so that you can get that carbon footprint and report it.
Those SEC proposals say that those reports need to be audited. Up until now, many organizations who were reporting their carbon emissions, the chief sustainability officer who was responsible for that, often reported into the CMO, chief marketing officer. You can see where the goals were there. Now as the SEC starts to get involved and regulate this, that CSO, that chief sustainability officer is going to shift over to the CFO's organization because the rigor required for that reporting will be far, far greater. That's going to be a huge challenge for organizations, I think. Technology is the only way that you can reliably report those emissions. Thank you.
Abe: Tom, that's an interesting point that you're bringing out in terms of who they report to. I think most of the individuals in this room would tell you that if you want things done, get it to the supply chain folks. They'll measure it and they'll report out on it. We did a study with the Economist Intelligence Unit specifically on the topic that you're bringing up, and we found that about 60 plus percent of the carbon three emissions does come from a supply chain.
The organizations only 42% had the metrics and/or reported out on their accomplishments or their objectives. Where does the supply chain professional, the CSCO fit within sustainability? I think it's part and parcel of everything we do from the design all the way to recycle, reuse, and the end-of-life products. Give me a sense of where the CSCO fits in with the CFO.
Tom: That's it. That can be up to the individual organizations. It depends on how they structure it, but obviously, the supply chain officer is going to be as you say, hugely responsible because depending on the organization, it can be anything up to 90% of emissions come from supply chain. As I say, depending on the industry. I was on my Climate 21 podcast, I was talking to a guy called Ken Pucker.
Ken is the former COO of Timberland. He was saying that when they started on their emissions reporting journey in the early 2000s, they were only able to report 5% of their emissions because they could only report scope one and scope two. The other 95% in their case was their scope three emissions which is their supply chain. It depends entirely on your industry where your emissions are coming from.
Rick: It sounds like a lot of these challenges before you mentioned moving from the CMO to the CFO, sounds like using emissions and sustainability as a branding exercise you become a little bit of a thing in the past to attract more consumers rather than like let's do some real good here. If the supply chain is in the beginning, to Tom's point, if that's the biggest part of your mission, then you're already behind the eight ball if you haven't planned it from day one.
David: We had our sustainability leader always reported up to Dave Park who was the CSCO at the time or SVP of Ops and that seemed like the obvious place to put it. Not sure why anyone will put it anywhere else.
Bob: Sustainability falls under the ESG umbrella. ESGs become a term for better or for worse, it's become quite controversial, that is trickling down into supply chain as well. I know I've mentioned this to Abe that I've had a number of conversations with CSCOs who I've known for years who would normally start talking about, we just automated a facility and who began the conversation of let me tell you what we're doing with diversity and inclusion, which is a very different conversation with an operations guy.
If you take it the other side of ESG, the diversity and inclusion, it's often couched as the war for talent. This is what we need in talent. In your organizations or the organizations you talk to, how are you looking at this issue and how are you addressing it either now or planning to in the future? We can start with Tom again.
Tom: Sure. I take a little bit of a fundamentalist view on this. I fundamentally believe that ESG, that whole spectrum is hugely important. Absolutely diversity inclusion, gender equality, all that really, really important. This is going to sound horrible when I say this now, but if we do not solve gender equality, diversity, inclusion in the next 100-200 years, the world will keep going. If we do not solve climate, the world will not keep going.
For me, it's the climate one that I focus on but to get back to your question, if I go back to that conversation I had with Ken Pucker from Timberland, he said that when they started on their sustainability journey, the lesson they learned from it, one of the big lessons they learned from it was when they advertised a position, he said that the caliber of the candidates who were applying for that position we're far higher than they ever would've expected.
It was because Timberland had this name of being an organization with a purpose and people wanted to work for an organization that was seen to be doing good. For them, it was easy to attract new talent, and not only that, but the retention rates were also really high. Your costs of recruitment and retention if you're seen to be an organization that has a good sustainability story, your costs of recruitment and retention come way down. Of course, your costs of acquiring new customers also come way down because people want to be buying from companies that are seen to be doing good.
Bob: So their efforts in sustainability helped build their D&I and talent. Rick, you work with other companies as well. What are people talking to you about and what's impacting them?
Rick: I think the big thing from a supply chain point of view is how do we get closer to our consumers? At the same time, how do we encourage teams to work together better? To me, that's where ESG is such a huge factor. People want to work for an organization and recognize that we're not just here for profits. We're here actually to make the world a better place for our customers and our employees. More diverse teams are more creative or more productive. They have better ideas. People enjoy working at these organizations better separately than just impacting the climate. Because then you feel like you have a sense of mission.
You all hear the story about the bricklayer who's working on a wall, "What are you doing? I'm laying bricks. I'm working on a wall. I'm building a cathedral.” If you have a higher purpose at work and you realize that you're in it not just for yourself or the profits of the CFO or whatever, then you're actually much more connected to the mission of the business which impacts things like tenure turnover rates as well, which do impact the bottom line at the same time.
David: In technology, in particular, we've got a White guy problem.
We are not a diverse group. When I was at Amazon, we were always, how do we get more than our fair share of women into technology and underrepresented minorities? One of the things I thought was we need to use the platform because Amazon has two assets. The website and the logistics platform. How do we use that to drive the world to a better place not just Amazon to a better place? I went and talked to the folks in electronics and they said they now have metrics for all of their advertisements but specifically for computers. They want to have as many girls as boys in the pictures on the website of kids playing with computers and they track it.
I thought that was a great way because what we saw in the '80s when I was growing up is all the marketing for computers was to boys and that is now paying off in a very negative way that we ended up with not enough women and others in the technology. It's a hard ship to turn. The other thing is, and this is a little controversial, HR is not your friend at this because they want everybody to be fair and so we can't disadvantage them. What I found is when we were trying to move the company forward, it was hard.
I said, let me individually try to help people because if we can promote women from what I call level sex from first-line manager to second-line manager to director six months faster, in each one of those, you've created a whole new leadership tier. I went out and found top-tier women and invested in writing feedback for them, coaching them, bugging their manager to promote them faster, and doing things not corporately blessed, which sometimes got me in trouble but for the most part, I think was the right thing to do.
Bob: Is it a difficult transition within technology? I've had individuals say to me we're all on board on this, but I've got managers who've been around for a long time and it's a difficult transition for them. As you say, technology is famous for being an old boy's network, so is it a difficult transition?
Rick: I think we're part of the problem here.
David: It is a super difficult problem because you trick people, White, not White, women, men. You trick them and every single one of them you see, "Oh, I understand why that person left, they got a better job," or, "They had the family thing, they're moving out of town." Then you look after a year or two and you got a bunch of White guys again. Entropy is working against you.
You need to actively be investing in all of your talents, but specifically the talent who don't feel comfortable and are surrounded by people who don't look like them and it's hard for them and like, I have not been successful. If you look at our metrics, I feel like I've been pretty active and we never get above about 25% women in the organization, but the number one thing you can do to get from 25 to 40%, hire a woman VP, or hire an African American VP, or Hispanic and that's a secret. You can't have to start from the top down.
Abe: You're opening up really interesting points about not only the pipeline but the talent and the skills necessary to be successful in today's environment, as a supply chain professional. Dave, you brought out the history, the majority of leaders today in supply chain did not come out of supply chain programs, predominantly finance and engineering in the '80s and the '90s. Oh, there'll be when old White males that are predominantly holding those jobs today, pay yet the diversity of the workforce.
I mean, they just look at this audience here, it's as diverse as you can ever imagine and we have that imbalance in terms of the leadership and the mentors, to your point, of hiring more mentors, hiring more role models within the industry to demonstrate, yes, there are pipelines for individuals of people of color, for women to get into supply chain and make a difference. Let's extend that discussion a little bit more about the skills necessary to be successful within supply chain. Historically, subject matter expertise was enough, as long as you were a functional expert in supply chain. That was the criteria. Now, that's the entry price to get into supply chain.
Now you're acquiring these individuals that have collaboration, communication, coordination across countries, across cultures, are being thrust into the leadership positions that historically were not part of our role and requirement within supply chain. Tell me, what are the skills necessary to be successful today and what do you see in the future for supply chain professionals to be successful?
Rick: I think it's moving more into math and science than ever before. Data, technology, analytics, retail trends, even because at the end of the day, if your customer is changing, then your supply chain needs to change because your supply chain is just an enabler of how do I get goods in and move goods out? To be the most efficient today, it's all a function of technology, data, people, process and it's not just about implementing those things, it's knowing, to Dave's point earlier, what are the right things to implement, because you can say, oh, we need to automate this process better but then ultimately, you can get the wrong thing out the door faster, and lose money faster, in the same way, and so on, and the wrong system.
I think critical thinking skills. You almost cannot emphasize it enough in business where groupthink in any sort of corporation is epidemic everywhere. If you're able to really analyze a problem, break it down, get to the root cause, go back to basics, five why's. Why are we here? How do we get here? What really got us into this situation and then what are the simple things we need to do to get ourselves not find a silver bullet and then wash our hands of it and kind of move on? I think supply chain organizations suffer from the same sort of root problems that a lot of just normal big organizations suffer from.
Abe: Dave, before turn it over to you. One of the studies that was done was the competencies of individuals graduating from school, and what the employer is looking for, and the mismatch, where are they overweighted, where they underweighted, and it was interesting. They were underweighted in real-world experience and critical thinking and we're overweighted in technology and data analytics. You put those two issues together, you've got technology with individuals who don't understand the data that's coming in or the data that is coming out and making decisions. Give me a sense of that, and all that dynamic for you.
David: That's a lot. I have a PhD in physics, and I was completely unmarketable. And I couldn't get a job doing that. So I started as a junior project manager at Amazon, it turns out, I could drive a project and that was much more important. Back then it was like if I can write down a description of the action item, name and owner and date, I could drive it. I did that for many years. What we've seen in the last 5 to 10 years, is the folks who are really succeeding in supply chain are operations research PhDs. We had a big program at Amazon to hire MBAs from MIT and Carnegie Mellon and these sort of, technical schools called Pathways and we'd make them go work in the warehouse for six months, and they hated it.
If they can work in the warehouse for six months and be an operations manager, then they can come to corporate and do all the analytics. All the nodes in the arcs and you have to tie them together, like it's super hard. In the end, the computers tie them together, but someone has to tell the computers how to tie them together. Again, I have a PhD in physics and it's over my head. I would recommend an undergraduate engineering degree, MBA with operations and analytical focus, those are the folks that I'm looking for the VP of the supply chain.
Abe: Tom, give me a sense here, what do you see on the skills necessary to be successful within supply chain?
Tom: All of the above? No, but more seriously, I think the points I made so far are very well made but what I would say as well, is it's not just a knowledge of data and analytics but it's also things are changing, things have changed to get us where we are today that we need this knowledge of data and analytics, but things are going to keep changing and keep changing and keep changing and the pace of change is going to increase.
People need not just to have a knowledge of data and analytics, but they also need to have a thirst for knowledge, they need to have a curious mind, they need to continue learning new stuff all the time because things will continue to change all the time and get faster in doing so.
Abe: Interesting point. Let's follow up on this a little bit. The study that we did with Gartner and I think, David, you alluded to this before about the resources an organization has to commit to either D&I or ESG. Large public organizations are held to a higher standard, obviously, because of public reporting, as you indicated before. SEC is going to force some reporting.
That hasn't been the case right now in DE&I, especially on the diversity side but yet we've seen more public organizations report out on their D&I issues, obviously, because it's critical to them. How do we enable the large organizations to work with the smaller companies that may not have the resources and the focus on DE&I and talent development, because these individuals have to come from somewhere and your partners are an extension of what you do as an organization? It's not only within your floor walls, but it's outside of your floor walls as well. Give me a sense of that extension of the public organizations into the private industry where we can really make a difference for women and people of color.
Tom: That's a really hard one. I think in the larger organizations, there needs to be probably the best way to drive it is to make it part of the KPIs of the VPs, or whoever are in charge of that outreach. It needs to be part of their KPIs. It needs to be part of their reporting structure. That is probably the biggest way to drive that internally within larger organizations, I would say.
Abe: Let's measure its impact, the supply chain rules here.
Bob: We're down to our last question. Let's end on a really great, positive note. This is, many people I've talked to in this room will say it's the most exciting time that we've been in the supply chain for most of our careers. As the three of you look forward, and then I'm going to end and ask Abe the same question. What excites you about your job today and as you look to the future of the supply chain? We'll start with Tom and then just go down the line.
Abe: No, I get to ask the question.
Tom: You're starting with me?
Bob: Yes, we'll start with Tom, there you go.
Tom: Sure, no problem. What excites me? I think I alluded to my passion around climate and I think the changes that I've seen and I'd be talking about this, I'm giving a talk at 11:45 related to this. The changes that I've started to see in the climate space, the things that are starting to happen, the initiatives that are being undertaken by large organizations, by governments, by the whole slew of stakeholders who are involved in this, everyone is starting to come on board and, hopefully, roll in the same direction but at least now, there's been a change in the last two, three years. I've been involved in this space since the early to mid-2000s and I've not seen this level of change in that time. In the last two, three years, the change where people are all starting to get on board and move in the right direction has really excited me.
David: I actually like that we're talking about the supply chain. I have a 13-year-old and an 18-year-old who just went off to college. Every night at dinner, I would tell them about the supply chain. They’re reading it in the newspapers or whatever, the blogs. We have a thing at my house, I take the dishes into the kitchen, my son loads them into the dishwasher, my other son unloads the dishwasher the next morning. I was like, "This is a supply chain," and then our dishwasher failed.
And I'm like, "This is what Long Beach is."
We had dishes all over the kitchen and I'm like, "This is the supply chain." Hopefully, one of my kids will internalize this and become a supply chain leader.
Rick: Yes, that's great. I mean, some of the things as I work with companies partially with respect to the Amazon effect in the last 20 years, what you've seen is digitization of consumer retail. How can we get things, next day, same day, which obviously affected all of you in this room in some way, I'm certain of it. I think in the next 20 years, one of the big trends that I see that I'm excited about is the digitization of everything else.
Which means traditional B2B categories, industrial, scientific, aerospace, environmental, all these categories want an Amazon-like customer experience. That is coming for these industries as well, not only from the buying relationship, so not just indirect procurement, which is sort of office supplies and things you need to run your business, but direct procurement, which is materials that you actually need to manufacture the goods and services that you're producing every day.
That is becoming digitized from starting with like visibility. Visibility is a whole class of supply chain software right now. It didn't exist 10 years ago. I mean, there are venture capital funds that are just investing in these sorts of firms. Visibility and compliance, once you have those things to the point, you can measure things like DE&I, diversity and inclusion, all things of all your supply chains.
One thing we know about big companies, and no offense to big companies in this room, if it's only the big companies being measured and not their suppliers, then that's just going to push the problem somewhere else. It has to be over the entire supply chain because you can't un-globalize the world. I do think the world's getting less flat in the next 20 years than it has in the last 20 years since Tom Friedman originally wrote the book, The World Is Flat. However, it's not going back to the mountains we originally had, they were just getting slightly less flat.
Abe: Thanks. I couldn't agree more with the comments that are here. I think we started this conference off talking about supply chain superheroes and the transformation that's occurred within the industry and the challenges that these individuals have had to face over the past three years have been unprecedented. I think if we take a look at historically, whether we take a look at climate issues or environmental challenges, we've dealt with those, whether the volcano or Fukushima, we've dealt with those types of disruptions in the past and recovered. We'll recover again, but the severity, and the duration, and the frequency of the disruptions right now I think are among the most significant that we're dealing with today. First, kudos to supply chain heroes everywhere for their persistence and their perseverance in the face of significant challenges.
Secondly, the knowledge base of our supply chain professionals and the role responsibilities that they're taking on right now, it's extraordinary, but I think that's a recognition of who makes the difference within organizations. We've talked about the path to the C-suite and the leadership in organizations for years, and we fully anticipate the supply chain professionals who will be the next leaders, why? There's only two functions in an organization that have to know everything that goes on in the company. The first is finance, and the second is supply chain.
Technology may be the third, but if you can't get by the finance and if you can't get the supply chain, you're not getting your product in the door and you're not getting your product out the door. Yet when we see the path to leadership within organizations, it traditionally has not been within the supply chain professionals. I think that's going to change and I think we're seeing
Tom: With the notable exception of Apple.
You've got Tim Cook, you've got Mary Barra, you've got a number of individuals out there, wonderful role models about what it takes to be a leader within organizations. Absolutely. I think we're going to see a wave of supply chain professionals leading organizations and I couldn't be more excited-
Abe: -about the future. Our hope is that the recognition of supply chain, not only for the challenges that it has because I think it's easy to pick the challenges that we face today, but we responded and the industry has responded and will continue to respond and I think that's the message that we need to get out to not only our colleagues and our friends and our families, is that you've got it in the hands of the right people and that's the supply chain superheroes, so I couldn't be more excited about the future.
Bob: Thank you, sir.
Abe: Thank you very much, Bob. I couldn't be more appreciative of Dave, Tom, and Rick for your insights. Our organization is only as good as the relationships that we have with the companies, with the supply chain professionals, and with experts like you. For The Rebound, I'm Abe Eshkenazi.
Bob: And I'm Bob Trebilcock.
Abe: I hope you join us for the next episode of The Rebound. Thank you very much.
Bob: The Rebound is a Joint production of the Association for Supply Chain Management and Supply Chain Management Review. For more information, be sure to visit ascm.org and ascm.com. We hope you'll join us again.